What exactly is the definition of human in a society where a mind can be copied and the body replaced with a fully synthetic body? Where is the boundary between human and machine when the differences between the two become more philosophical than physical? Ultimately how do we define what it is to be human?
I’m not going to try and answer this today but these are the philosophical questions that form the basis of the futuristic manga and anime series Ghost in the Shell created by Masamune Shirow (first published in 1989). Whilst being nearly 30 years old the franchise is still alive and well with three movies, a TV series, a game and a trilogy of novels being spawned from it along with many aspects having slowly percolated into popular culture (it heavily inspired The Matrix).
With such a strong pedigree it’s rather worrying that Production I.G has sold the rights for a live-action movie to DreamWorks under the direction of none other than Steven Spielberg. For fans, this is a pretty worrying development. Whilst there is no denying Spielberg’s talent it’s an altogether different proposition when applying it to something like this, the main fear is that it will be severely dumbed down for a Hollywood audience.
If they can respect and stay faithful to the original maybe this has a chance but then again the likelihood of that is pretty low – the precedent is already pretty well established for ruining Asian cult classics.
Update (10/2009): Apparently Dreamworks has hired Laeta Kalogridis as lead writer (who also worked on one of the Tomb Raider movies) along with Avi Arad (formerly of Marvel) and Steven Paul to produce what’s being called a “3D live-action film”. Does anyone care to speculate what that means?
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Yeah, I can respect Spielberg's work for what it is, but remaking something like this as a live action film for a predominantly western audience is nothing but bad news.
I'm feeling the pain, already.
I'm a huge fan of “Ghost in The Shell”, in all its forms, and knowing that something so sacred to me will end up in the hands of Spielberg, is like being stabbed.
ur right. Spielberg is not right for this. they will screw the movie up so bad!!!.
Speilberg's work tends to be, generally, pretty light. I'm afraid he may not be able to convey the complicated philosophical ideas of Ghost in the Shell. Aside from that the violence level is sure to go down and just can't imaging that it will be very good.
fans should lobby dreamworks to allow spielberg to produce but let someone else direct:
Candice, I think you put it perfectly. Personally I'd rather it not be made unless it was done with Japanese actors in Hong Kong (where the manga was set) without being tonned down for western audiences.
I've been watching Ghost in the Shell for a long time, and I'm meeting this with some trepidation. It is right that Spielberg might not be able to include the deep philosophy juxtaposed in a rebellious and dangerous futuristic Japan. That, and it seems, when an anime or manga turns live action — something is lost. The voices we've always heard our characters with, the phrasing of their sentences, their attitude, and how we have always seen them changes. An actor can try, but they will never be that character.
I guess, you didn't see AI or Saving Private Ryan? Speiberg is quite adept at both philosophy and violence.
Actually AI was not Spielberg’s. He finished what Kubrick started, yet could not finish within his lifetime.
Ghost in the Shell is heavy on its spoken dialogue, which matches nicely to Masamune’s heavy written dialogue in the GITS Manga.
I had better be satisfied with being able to watch the GITS live action film mutliple times and be able to see and hear new details that make the experience truly GITS.
Motoko must be the dominant character in any new medium for GITS, while all other characters support, yet have background that compete with Motoko’s.
Expectations are varied. Good luck to all involved.
Besure to have a Japanese blessing ceremony for the best possible results.
Who the hell said Snyder could do this? Are you joking? I’m fine with him doing Watchmen, but as far as I’m concerned, GitS is waaaaay out of his league. Del Toro seems to only be good at fantasy, if you haven’t noticed. Cameron, I could accept, because he’s brillant at just about everything.
Speilberg is an excellent director, and his realistic take on scifi could be just what this series needs. I can’t even fathom why you all are bashing on the man who has made more successful movies than almost anyone else in history. Seriously, STFU.
Gabriel – you said it perfectly. Couldn’t agree with you more 🙂
I believe you may be confused. I don’t think anyone is questioning Spielberg’s talent as a director. The problem is that the previous Ghost in the Shell adaptations, though different from the manga, preserved a certain character that they feel Spielberg may not wish to preserve. Basically, I don’t think that there is a strong feeling that the series “needs” a significantly new contribution of any kind. To have Spielberg and Steven Paul producing this is a little bit like asking Andy Warhol to finish a commission started by Monet. Both great artists, drastically different styles. That being said, I do hope to see more of Spielberg’s influence than Arad or Paul, as it seems that of the three he might be more flexible in terms of preserving the aura we ahve all come to appreciate.
I could not agree more
Thing is about him is he isnt japanese. Japanese have that fantasy/imagination americans dont have. They dont have influence of religion or culture prospective like america has. Manga doesnt have presure besides the company wanted it our faster. America wants less blood, something that will explain Gits to everyone who isnt a anime fan and less hot motoko. Thing is japan probably is saying “Why the hell is America trying to make Anime movies?” Plus is dreamworks……arent they cartoon movie makers???????
That is a very racist statement.. america, if anything, is the only combination of all cultures and races, and if anything has the highest capacity for inventiveness and imagination. Infact any movie thats any good comes from america, and im american and i dont want less blood. ha maybe if you broadened your interest in movies youd notice that there are plenty of extremely bloody films.. saying that we all want less blood is a total BS statement.
I agree with Tate. Japan doesn’t have the capacity to create a really great live action film. That’s the primary reason they went into animation in the first place. Of course they have good films too, but financially, America’s Hollywood is more well off. If it’s CG then Japan maybe able to pull it off too, but the US still would have the upper hand imho. I’m not so much worried about GITS as I am about the Evangelion movie I heard about.
PS: I thought Americans wanted more blood, lol.
I have to say with a lot of fans, I too am worried. I do not doubt spielberg’s talents or abilities, I just worry on the fact that english/american directors don’t have the same touch as japanese. The death note live action movie has been one of the best however the Dragonball is looking awful, so what can we hope the GIS movie will be like? Also the actors signed up to play the characters will play a big part of making the movie a success as many of the cowboy bebop fans are worried about due to that being supossedly made into a live action movie, predictions are Jonny Depp gets spike. I am expecting a lot of gore, violence and nudity to be stripped from the film concidering it is ‘Dreamworks’ with the film rights and they have been more known to produce more universal films over the past few years.
Thanks for your comments Giffica & Danni. I’m still hoping that this will come to nothing and it’ll never get made. Sounds like Akira is also in the running to get a Hollywood makeover so there may be no getting away from any of this!
hey…in addition to GitS, DB, and Cowboy bebop, akira…yes the classic of classics in anime has been mentioned…it would be ok if maybe they were going after new, less in depth anime plots that most people wouldnt you know….notice, but, really? i love older animes, with akira, and onward anime really got its act together and started to be an ever increasing phenom in the west, but now…this sort of thing could be crippling.
When resident evil and its demon spawn sequals defiled what was once my favorite console gaming series i took it, tried to look it in the eye while it held me down and got its monies worth outa me, even when mia jovovich managed to find a jump ramp to come flying through a stain glassed window some 20 feet off the ground on a heavy street cruiser, i said “oh hey…atleast her petite frame isnt going to oh…wait…she did flip that bike in mid air and land a shot to….i..im sorry im crying now..tears of pain.”…meh. lets all just hope for the best and pray that if DBZ craters the rest of the studios will get it together and make GOOD movies.
Just happend to see this page as I was looking for some trailers and wanted to ad… I agree with almost all of you. We anime lovers, love the voices, acting and thoughts of our ” favorite ” character so much that even the thought of “amerikan actors” playing our favorite characters worries us. Actually to play in GITS I think they should all give the ” actors” some GITS lessons so that they ” learn and understand a bit ” of what we expect from them. In fact it is importand who the director is but the actual question is who are going to be actors and how are they gona act. I mean there was ” devilman” .. the anime was great … after I saw the live action trailer I thought to myself ” I have to see this ” but … the only thing I was thinking after watching the live-action was …. ” How bad can a live-action movie be” even if it was japanese. So the only thing we can do is cross our fingers and hope for the worst scenario =) By the way … Spike is going to be played by Keanu Reeves in the live-action, way better than jhonny depp for a movie like this I think
I can understand why the US would take on Ghost in the Shell instead of Japan. Japan originally doesn’t have such great live action movie production skills. That’s primarily why anime was created in the first place. But I heard that the Ghost in the Shell movie was going to be 3D animation, in which case I think Japan could do just as good as job as the US could (i.e. advent children). From my personal point of view as a anime fan and a Japanese person, I don’t believe that any anime should be made into a live action movie. There’s a certain quality to anime that can’t be replicated by real people. I don’t really have anything to back up my opinions, but it’s just a strong feeling that I’ve always had. Every time I hear of an anime going under live action treatment I get depressed.
Who knows if he’s going to remake or use one of the many other stories in the GITS universe? Spielberg is a visionary. IF he’s going to do it. He’ll do it big.
In a way i can respect Spielberg taking this on, but they do have a point by saying it might be dumbed down. At least Spielberg is familiar with the series and hopefully wont disappoint (too much) but for keeping everything as is, i dont see a chance of them keeping it as intense as the actual anime. Im excited but at the same time incredibly worried. (at least theyre cool enough to do it)
Kiichi I totally agree. There is a certain quality to anime that gets stripped away when it becomes a live action. To me this shows how badly hollywood is struggling though with finding original stories. It seems like everything today is just a remake of something else and nothing will be as good as the original. So no matter how much care they put into RE-making GitS it still wont be the same and fans will be dissappointed, while a new group of people will praise the Live Action and think that they made an anime from that.
Although it is Sad, it is indeed very True
It will suck, even if you look at Jurassic Park, which was a great movie, it was terrible compared to the book.
Production I.G. is my favorite studio but I am not a fan of this decision.
No woman alive could play the major. This isn’t Tomb Raider where the only requirement is having tits.
It’s ONE of the requirements though 😉
not an important one to make mention, i would rather have a major who had the right attitude than one who had noticable tits
Of course, of course. I’m not saying tits over personality. But I consider them part of her character as well. I think in shallow terms Motoko is the mixture of wittiness, aggressiveness, and sexiness. I wouldn’t want a major that’s missing any of those parts. Of course physical appearance can be changed easily for movies so I’m sure that won’t be much of a problem.
All of your comments mean alot to my overwhelming state right now. I’ve always loved Ghost in the Shell, and I will respect the movie with heavy bias so I can always enjoy it and rather not feel any emotional pain from the unwanted expectations. Ssaya you are right, no women alive could play the Major in such a courageous, outstanding role. Then again she is a Cyborg and being that could mean such a trait could only be discovered given her context. I’ve just recently heard the news and I’m much more than delighted to hear an attempt to remaster the beautiful series in live action elements, but yes I look down upon the high possibility of the movie suppressing story elements to a wide range of viewers. Nevertheless all I can say is that such a feat is in the hands of more than a professional, his experience in past movies such as Jurassic Park may have been belittled from the books, but other great motion pictures in my opinion such as A.I Artificial Intelligence renowned the stepping in his career with heavily improved drama and story. The live action movie is reported to be finished in 2011, leaving as of now 2 years to complete. All I hope is that the movie begins filming, along with well postulated decisions such as roles and story, and that content is squeezed into the film as much as possible. The original anime along with the trailing movies and series have touched viewers in a way other films have never thought of going, entering a realm of philosophical reasoning and technological inundation that purges audiences with vicarious aspects. I’ll be looking forward to the day this movie arrives to theaters, not with hope of an accurately portrayed story but the entertainment elements no different from the anime that’ll surely never disappoint.
Very well Said
If “Ghost in the Shell” really has to be made into a live action movie, at least get directors who know their stuff when it comes to philosophy and whatnot.
The Wachowski brothers come to mind.
As much as Spielberg may be a talented individual he’s going to end up destroying “Ghost in the Shell”…
Now that I think about it, it may be an inevitable result. I’ll just have to put up with it, just like everyone else. I also heard the movie will be in 3D…
Me and my friends have been debating these very facts when the rumor of a live action version was released. Though I agree with most of the users here, I have to put my 2 cents into the fray. The long lived and well liked series of Ghost in the Shell ( I am referring to the animated series as it is the most relevant to this discussion) has long been a favorite of mine, and it seems to be a favorite of yours as well, and this adaptation will certainly bring it to the general public. That being said, the way I see it, there can only be one of two conclusions. 1. The movie will be a hit, and stick true to the original settings and ideals. This does not necessarily mean that it sticks to the original story, but it conveys the same depth and Philosophy as its original form, i think all of us would agree this would keep us (the fans) happy. or 2. The movie strays (as with most adaptations of this nature) and leaves the audience feeling betrayed, either by removing elements or changing philosophy/ideals. I realize that later is the more probable, but it is true that this might be the perfect opportunity for the western people to really make a great series.
I guess what i am trying to say is give it a chance, and we may yet be surprised =)
One more thing that i may have left out in my original post. Is it not possible that the character of Motoko might be removed, and we, as viewers will be introduced to a whole new cast.
I understand that this isn’t a “perfect” soloution but let us look at it from a different angle. So long as the deep philosophy and ideals are present, does it really matter if the main characters are changed? i understand that we have all grown attached to the current members of Section 9, but in my opinion we might warm up to it more, if it were to be given a fresh approach, so as not to destroy the original masterpiece
Feel free to disagree i love these kind of debates (as long as their civil)
I agree Tom, we all seem to look at this in a tangent perspective, but always meeting to the conclusion Ghost in the Shell was a great a decision. I’ll have to swerve away on this, but I think the rich personalities of the characters must be mandatory. Submissively, I’ve grown too attached to the members of Section 9, and naively enough want to forever keep those familiar elements! In my views, what constructed the masterpiece was pretty much all the obvious elements: The people, the philosophy, and the politics! Not to mention to rich ideologies of antagonists that when thought deeply, you couldn’t possibly disagree entirely! I can’t let go of these things in the show, and I couldn’t imagine a horrible live counterpart that orchestrates so poorly given the elements. These factors are given to director and should be incorporated in the best way possible. Ghost in the Shell was scripted by those who had an idea of a fairly complex story that appeals in all ways which are mostly absent today. So to sum to it up, I don’t want a profound change in the character development’s countenance, but I’m more than willing to accept a fresh method of character development as long as it stays on course thereafter.
One thing I’d like to share though. I got an interesting idea for an outcome, I think there are many possibilities in the story. Such as the movie conveying a normal episode, an ordinary case per se, where the length is extended to that of a film with or without the philosophy incorporated. Whatever the story line is, I think it’s a good win win to encapsulate the philosophical deep thoughts into the movie, though it might not immediately appeal to a wide audience, I think it will certainly appeal to a small audience (not a cult), and eventually draw more attention; resulting more and more of an interest. At most, that’s what my hopes are really aiming for, if it ever meats high expectations.
I must Say Chaz, I am rather moved by all of your posts, and I agree with you in their entirety, I am simply trying to put it out there that the very idea of a live action may as well be taking the anime to a whole new level. Please do not construe what I am saying as either a good thing or a bad thing, merely as a thought experiment as to what may happen. Granted, I would agree that the characters of the series/manga are key and pivotal to that specific story line, and undoubtedly what drew us all in in the first place, but I for one would be interested to see where this all ends up. as I said in my previous post(s) it is possible that this is the outcome, and if it is (ie Motoko being removed as a character) that the LAM (live action movie) may not necessarily “suck” but may bring to light an even deeper understanding of the possible back story of Section 9. unfortunately, due to the lack of publicly released information, it is impossible, and inpractical to make any long term judgements or even predictions. I am just glad to see that the fans who really understand, and care about the series, are making their “stand”(if i can really call it that) and giving a chance for the public to see, and hopefully argue/debate/converse over the entire GitS universe/thought process., undoubtedly, this is precisely what Masamune Shirow had wanted from the very beginning, the fans and public to debate his great work.
As always, feel free to disagree (as long as your civil)
Even if the movie is lacking in depth compared to the anime, movies, or manga, it will still bring more attention to GitS, and hopefully inspire more to watch/read the original.
Ahaha, yes! A point I’ve forgotten to mention! But when that happens, I just hope that the amount of people that don’t find Gits interesting won’t increase due to those who’ve out of curiosity read the anime/manga from the film.
agreed that that is an inevitable conclusion to all of this, and point that i cant seem to find made elsewhere. but let us not forget the the mass of the populace might not understand and may misconstrue what Mr. Shirow was trying to convey, and let us also not forget, that this work will relay the series as seen through the eyes of whoever directed it.
My biggest hope is that Masamune Shirow is at the very least an “on the set consultant” and at best a “Director to the Director”
True enough, I can’t help but feel like the fans of the series have to go through a mandatory dilemma between a satisfying outcome to the fans, followed by unneeded criticism from those who are new to it, and a watered down construct of the series that satisfies new audiences followed by slightly or more disappointed fans. It is foolish, I agree, to make long run predictions of a film of a series that isn’t as prevalent to the masses, but it is never considered impractical to make predictions for an upcoming film this shocking to fans like me and you. But it’s just me, being triggered by news of this caliber, being openly thoughtful for fun. But the amount of fanship I have for the show would not ever allow me accept a failing piece that attempts to orchestrate one of the most remarkable works of all time without doing something rational, I apologize if I my personal bias stepped within your boundaries; so I can’t help but toss fun ideas. Whatever they do the story line, such as the possibility as you described “extending” the story to unveil more character background could whimfully go without considering worrying changes.
I’m not sure what Mr. Masamune’s public intentions were, but I also agree right now he’s more than happy to hear that amount of controversy stirring up just from the news of an upcoming movie. I can sleep soundly knowing that there are people with views just as identical to mine Tom, but I’ll sleep more than satisfied if Mr. Shirow himself worked with the big-named director!
“I apologize if I my personal bias stepped within your boundaries; so I can’t help but toss fun ideas.”
There is no need to apologize, at this point, everyone has personal Bias that is going to drive their comments in debate, and there is no need to hide them. Certainly I concede that the wording of what I said was a bit loose, and I will re-iterate; what I was trying to say was that it was impractical to make any long term judgments on the outcome, not the quality or storyline, but the way people would handle it. Don’t get me wrong, I love the idea of throwing hypothetical situations out there, I’m just saying that at this point that’s all they are…hypothetical
And about the director, you and I know his work is just as proportionally big as it is to us with Shirow. Amusingly, I have no doubts his views would ever be near wide scale rejection.
You know, as soon as I started reading this thread, I began to examine each of the individual episodes of the series. and if by chance (I randomly selected episodes) there was a striking resemblance to this debate to the very one held in S.A.C. Episode 9 (Chat! Chat! Chat!). if any of you get the chance, this is quite a unique view. The episode is (as I hope you all know) a tuning point in the series where the public begin debating the affect the Laughing Man had on the system in a public forum. This is almost a perfect parallel to this very debate/conversation , and lends credence to my hypothesis that Mr. Shirow wanted a bit of debate. Check it out yourselves. almost gives me goosebumps…..
well the matrix I would consider a success
seeing as how this franchise greatly influenced the Matrix
makes me a little hopefull and I highly doubt that speilberg
is interested in making a complete flop, besides, with him that rarely happens
It couldnt be any worse then the dragonball adaptation
plus I’ve havent seen that many movies from speilberg that weren’t great
At least I’m not putting on a laughing man avatar and making pointless discussions about how cool he is (I have better ways to approach that :D). Personally, that episode was great except for the embarrassing fan-dom some of the people brought with them in the chat room. It was at such a point, I was sure the major herself found it hard to pull the subject matter from people other than the middle-aged hacker.
well, i am only using this episode as a catalyst to my point. the parallel is there, and though the subject manner may be greatly deviated (ie not making stupid random points on any given subject) the debate and information sharing is highly relevant to my prior argument that mr. Shirow really wanted exactly what is happening here. even years after the original release, his ideology, philosophy and even his visions are being brought to the surface again…
Now thats what I call a Visionary.
Well guys its been fun, but im in the middle of a move right now so i wont be around to continue for a while, but i will subscribe via rss to keep up with current debate topics
I hope that all of you remember all of what was said here, and i hope that you all take to heart the very essence of the series, and i sincerely hope that the magic of the series/manga/movies live on long enough to see justice done to this great masterpiece of a movie
I never said it was a bad idea to make points in episodes. I especially like that episode myself. I even learned that in the world of GITS chat rooms actually have three dimensional avatars and that debates can even take place in 3d space, along with the option of spectators. Did you remember when the chat room host (seemed like a teenager taking the image of a man) who suddenly stopped the debate to clear the chat cache after it was noticed that the list exceeded virtual space? I found that interesting that each statement someone made, there was small paraphrased entry(or complete entry, I wasn’t sure because it was japanese) pushed onto each person’s “talk window” or whatever it was that was keeping track of exchanged words.
Before you leave this topic, another thing I want to talk about(debating wasn’t my idea, but sharing is more of what I’m trying to get at here) Well, don’t forget that most people who recognize Ghost in the Shell recognize it by the the anime series. Most people in America recognize it more specifically when it aired on adult swim. The anime series was written and directed by Kenji Kamiyama, not Shirow Masamune directly but he was probably an off-scene adviser elsewhere . I’m not trying to convey an offensive point, but in an interview with Kenji, he stated that some scenes in the anime were delivered gracefully though animation. Sadly pointing out that manga and anime do not have exact capabilities. And most of the ideology and the political folklore were created by him. All this time I realized that the text “Based on Shirow Masamune’s Work” that appears on each episode meant that the effort to establish a series was done by someone else and not necessarily on Shirow’s behalf. So in the views of a person who fancies the series, they’d wrongfully give Mr.Shirow ALL the credit he unthoughtfully deserves. He only started the manga and other works, the Production I.G staff is completely unrelated to Shirow in terms of work advisory and that they started on superseding the series. So in retrospect, even though you’ve seen his name many times on the screen, he simply started the idea and contributed some. Don’t forget about all the hard working staff that helped produced that masterpiece, and don’t focus the credits on him entirely. To me, I give strong credit to the animators, writers, and mostly the last two, Kenji and Shirow.
Now, I’ve over-thought the idea of the movie. Obviously I’m in no place to say that I’m not a deep fan because of how much I’ve discussed. But now, whatever the outcome of the movie, I’ve decided to put away any hard feelings in advance. I’m thankful enough that an American person of this caliber, Stephen Spielberg, would find such an interest in a show that he’d actually produce a film with regard to the risk that a large audience would negatively misjudge it’s true face.
Who knows, perhaps they’ll be enough people to spread the word of how strong the ideology of the show is, and that whatever the outcome, even if it never reaches the eyes of hard critics, it can still motivate people to check out the anime. Hell, maybe adult swim will start airing the series again in honor of the film’s release! Or even better! As stated by the CEO or Production I.G, if there is any strong demand for a 3rd season in the americas and that budget suffices strongly in the right time, he states Production I.G will guarantee the development and American release of the 3rd season of Ghost in the Shell.
you know, i read this post roughly a week ago, and it has taken me this long to respond….
of course you are right, and it seems my wording has been a bit off, and this is, in fact, an a molding and sharing of ideas, rather than a debate and i appologize to the community on a whole for the error.
as for the second part of your thread ((the one it has taken me a week to put together a response to))
You are absoloutly right, and the director of the animated series really has been neglected in this, and shirow has been put n a pedestal, so to speak.
so if your watching this Kenji Kamiyama, i sincerely apologize to you as well, you did an excellent job on the series and hope you continue to do so.
If you dont mind me asking, Chaz, where did you find the information on the third season? i feel dumb for not coming across it during all my research.
Well, now that you know that Kenji is responsible for most of the story line and that Shirow was the basis of his ideas. That’s all I’m trying to get across, just give credit to both these people.
Where was I informed about a possibility of a third season was in the last DVD’s extras of Solid State Society. It was the interview with the chairman of Production I.G, as he stated there will be an attempt to produce a third season if the two factors fanship and budget ever meet their requirements at the right time. I’ve implied that I’m a huge fan but if there was something that I could do I would contribute to this project. I’m sure that anything that all of us could do is just donate but that wouldn’t seem right, it’s not a drive in or anything haha. I guess right now the fate of the third season is way out of my hands, I think they’d want us to support them in the way where we buy their merchandise. But who’s gonna buy every single DVD, shirt, plush toy (if any), hand grenade salt shaker to meet the requirements of establishing fanship? I mean I would, but who’s gonna have nerve to convince people to do just that? Just a thought as all, nothing really serious I want to talk about.
If I was rich, I’d donate a hefty amount of cash, preferably in the trillions! Then they’d have no excuse to not make a third season! It just seems wrong to control what a company’s gonna do, so scratch that.
Tom what are you talking about a community? lol, this is just a comment thread for an article about the speculation of a live action movie of a great anime. Surely you shouldn’t get yourself into that kind of forgiveness, because there’s nothing to forgive. Comments are comments, that’s why you can.
well, in a way, this comment thread is a community, a small one, mind you, but a community none the less, we all share a similar interest, and we are all sharing them freely, as a community would. Anyway, i think im all tapped out. anything more i could possibly say would be repeating points, and strengthening prior statements, which, i feel is unnecessary seeing as how most of us here agree with each other.
One final word though, to any people who are reading this who might have a part to do with the live action
GOOD LUCK, and we all look forward to the finished product
Hi Chaz / Tom – although I’ve not managed to follow your debate closely thanks for all your comments! It will be most interesting to see what comes of all this 🙂
At the very least David, i hope that we’ve managed to convince you that the series is worth a watch, and its being made might have a very good impact on culture today.
but if you do get a free hour, i do reccommend re-reading the posts that Everyone her has put, alot of people made alot of very good points
how could you imagine the same as i imagine bu myself at the topic man machine distinction blurs as such i haven’t read your text for this topic and thought how could a man machine distinction blurs.as such as we are being using artificial machinery parts such as artificial lungs and kidney into our body then what if we are being used as a machine part.that is it might be seen possible a machine will exist having human brain acting as its body part.a machine being capable of having the capacity of human brain.
I’m not sure I follow, are you asking our opinions as to how the man/machine distinction could become blurred? or something else all together.
Sorry I couldn’t respond, but if you could rephrase it for me, or explain it a bit more, I’ll give it my best shot
True, it can be viewed as small thread, I very much agree and that we all seem to agree on the same thing. So there’s no point unless a topic of interest comes up that may produce mixed opinions which I doubt there are any. Sorry I can’t quote reply to your response Tom, the reply button isn’t there for some reason. I think it’s reached the limit of quoting lol.
Ok saw this thread and had to post. I love Ghost in the shell for some of the underlying concepts of society and psychology. The series was inspired by a essay on structuralism vs. dualism/duality. As we see from the series we hold both of them in most of us. The story and series has even started a social evolution of a type, and even inspiring other stand alone complexes to emerge. The parallels are beautiful to see play out. I truly hope they don’t mess this up to bad. If hollywood does make it more american they need to try to get some of the depth to the original philosophy. I will give a light depiction of what they need to approach.
They first need a counter part like the laughing man or the puppet master. It needs to be someone that thinks like this. He analysis the CIA for a weak link due to standing out, from knowing the structural setup and hierarchical setup, then analyzing stuff like the CIA world fact book, money trails, operations and even recruitment media made for them like burn notice. As you see they leave wake so to say and can be manipulated to. This is 1 of my scenarios for a puppeteer . He seeds the CIA ( say a section chief that stands out ) . Gives them plans that they adopt as there own, and use them with bin laden. Then conflict is made between bin laden and the CIA , and bin laden then was seeded with information for 9-11. Also the seed for nationalism and destabilization of a organization/social structure. The overture of war had the tailings of a psychological war, but the real detail and higher level tactics where never shown, and to me scream of a puppeteer. Just think of the words shock and awe, but fumbling on rebuilding and policing during that invasion. Here again I would have had the shock and awe be seeded information, and a larger longer play is actually playing out. Part being manipulation of social structures weather it be political, religious, or other. Now to take this even further. If the puppeteer even crafted events, or just used events like health care reform/legislation, and even manipulating pharmaceutical and insurance companies, lobbying and media distribution, and the brainwashed people from such efforts. Like the secessionist with undertones of civil war and assassination/lynching imbedded in the movement, The birthers,fake or hijacked grassroots movements Ect… We see a type of national destabilization, and social/psychological migrations or movements from such, and using the old divide and concur techniques coupled with using strengths as weaknesses and weaknesses as manipulation points, while staying a ghost so to say .I would also imply the botnet/puppet master effect was used in the july 4th incident with Korea,or the attacks from china or russian servers from recent past would have been a seeded event, a test of computer security of many nations and the reactions of them from the seeded events, while staying ghost like. I Personally would use the guise of standing up against a perceived repression from a social structure as the opponents motive and crafting. Maybe even have a fight against a social ideology as a intertwined motive, or a small intermediate plot of progressivism vs. repressionism where as the repression is coming from the religious and the corruption or politics that is interwoven into our society. Or even a small imbedded plot analyzing the illegal drug industry war, and show the cultural war that was entwined with it( like the rave act ). Again with overtures of social engineering political and economic interest, and the few controlling the many. The drug war in many ways is a farce, If we legalized them then regulated it with good oversight, the drug war would end over night, and a social structure can get to the real issues that get ignored, like true rehabilitation for true addicts. Throwing so many non violent people in jails, while letting out murderers and such is justice gone very, very twisted and a rye. Know thy enemy @ 🙂 .
The social and psychological undertones and acuity represented in the series was a delight to comprehend and fathom. Where is section 9 when you need them, Motoko Kusanagi, Batou, where are the new trainees, and how did section 9 survive within the new sociopolitical environment. Better yet where can I get my thermoptic cammo, or think tank, or other neat toys? It’s time for us to start making/doing; defense and attack barriers, deep packet sniffing and manipulation, Ghosting A.I. and Ghost kernelling with over clocking and Ghost networks and Ghost hard drives/ partitions, 56K+ encryption with multiple layering, new protocol sets, flag able tracking techniques and data mining/data manipulation, social and psychological profiling and warfare, intelligence gathering techniques/manipulation, Ect….. A large social structure security of a type. Oh well enough for this post. I’ll leave you with a link to another sites blog with a puppet master parallel . The link is here http://dreaming5gw.com/2007/05/puppetmaster_parallel.php As you can see I made a few post there too.
My fingers are crossed for a decent movie. Please Mr. spielberg don’t mess this up to bad. After all I’m just another old laughing man @ 🙂 , And Ghost like and falling threw the cracks is just nature of the beast. I’d guess that Texas has many more strange days ahead, if for nothing else but the irresistibility to play with the locals at times. @ 🙂
C’mon, let him do the job, despite the speculated folly it’s inadequacies may as well be viewed interesting by those that aren’t at all familiar with Ghost in the Shell. Yes, I don’t think any of Spielberg has ever committed any philosophical confabulation in his films, however I do believe he does contribute a deeper illustration of our current issues in his prior ones. Raiders of the lost ark obviously wouldn’t be one to describe but let’s say A.I. Artificial Intelligence, the movie predicts upcoming issues that may arise from the man-machine interface; not literally a computer-interface but how machines would interface with our lives. The walking robots in the movie were ridden as worthless and were tossed out due to their out-dating status in comparison to new models. It showed the shocking decision of a mother that couldn’t bear the loss of her only son, and so rationally orders an extremely life like android to take his place in hopes to permanently bandage her perforated heart. It so later became awkward to the point at night she needed to read a manual to learn how to use her son, particularly the function of sleeping. Though it shocked me, it shows how far we’re able to take human construction into extremely high levels of deep and personally practicalities. In the event that she felt completely guilty for trying to artificially replicate the life of her son, she did the only thing that could be done in order to salvage her blemished countenance; she wholly promised her artificial son that she would be back to get him after leaving him in a forest, attempting to hopefully let the souled-machine find a better place. In the end, Spielberg’s devastating weapon took place, thousands of years pass and the machine boy coexists with the extinct human race. All that’s left are alien beings rummaging the planet, and as a symbol of compassion for man’s great invention they resurrect his acclaimed mother for one day where he rests happily for centuries from there on. I used this example, not only the fact that is incorporates robotics and futuristic technology, but of how well Spielberg used drama to illustrates how we, ourselves, are our own reckoning. He shows that there could be the possibility of millions of civilizations that could be just like us or even more advance, and how simple actions of self preservation can be the main disassociating factor that will annihilate us in an intrapersonal response to recuperate and fulfill the survival of a species. This strong associative future outlook is the closest philosophical masterpiece I could think of, but this film alone shows that Spielberg has the mental and physical tolerance to develop a masterpiece of equal or greater understanding.
In my honest irrefutable opinion, Spielberg would never attempt to make close references to naively famous figures. Though there can be figures that closely resemble the political conduct of particular regimes, there is also the factor of Spielberg specializing a figure of mixed and powerful inter-personality, such as a Prime Minister that takes into account the historical and foreseen results before taking any action use tools, like Section 9, that would jeopardize the stability his/her country. For the sake of the film’s succeeding trends, he would go near and expose a political figure’s egotistical acclaimed infallibility but my predictions would rather see him create a genuine example to disconnect such disliked intractability if he himself predicted such a fan’s discernment.
I’m more into the humanist approach with my concerns of this blog post, I just want a good movie whilst keeping specifics such as the architecture of portrayed social structures you do so predict. I wouldn’t work much into that if you’re going to create accurate hypothesis’s of the movie’s contents, so much attributed material would never meet the big screen; however I humorously suggest a lengthy volume documentary that would better fit those who’d take fit the subject all the time. I myself aren’t much a philosopher but due to the overwhelming factors that breach into our set solutions, we are ever altering our guesses to match our experimental expressions. It’s very hard to become a dictator of all things that aren’t apparent to general populous, but I find it concretely incited in congnition that people who take so much thought they become so out of body in their thinking that they’re their own manifestation of controlled relevant thought processing, otherwise known as thinking within the area around you. I tend to keep away because I know that no human can constantly portrait the future and other relevant entities without overtly paradox-ing, despite how biologically advance we are we always needlessly show our vigilance in subjects of social nomenclature. I’m not admitting heartingly so that I don’t vigilantly dive into these subjects just as millions of other people, it’s just particularly, excuse the break in relevance, I just want a great movie.
I will get into talking more about these issues and how complex the correlations between ourselves and the entity that conforms action thus calling itself society. I’d like to discuss more too, hopefully in this thread or somewhere else but as of the time of this writing I’ve very tired and tried to give my insight as all.
Hi Chaz, nice reply by the way. Yes I had A.I. on my mind a long time ago when I first heard about this live action movie. So I know he( Spielberg ) can get the cyber techno human machine interfacing and virtualization rendering done fairly good. Also as we have seen with Spielberg movies he knows how to do action with drama, but I’m just not sure if he can put, or pull off, philosophical twist’s into a action drama, with conflict and social struggles being represented right. I think most of us agree, The original Ghost in the shell had so many good layers to it, while not getting to dry or too much of 1 thing like drama or action which drowns out other aspects. Personally I think in this case most of us true fans are worried, and for fairly good reason too. As to a major Motoko, the only one who keeps coming to mind for that part would be Lexa Doig type. I also think if they approach it right they could do something like a prequel to the original series to build on the original series while keeping a good fan base. Kind of like a stepping stone getting people back into GITS. Just think of how did motoko get into section 9 in the first place? How did section 9 get first started? As you see they almost have a story prewritten for them with that type of approach. As to the stated above in the previous post, they could use a existing framework for near future events to unfold. And that stuff stated above, would be back reference that would get expressed/referenced in some way as they try to find the puppeteer/counter part/culprit. Also to the reference of the dictator type, that would not be inline with the puppet master parallel. The puppet master didn’t control everyone and every thing, but instead controlled and manipulates specific events and movements and ideas. The puppet masters also inspired copycats and stand alone complexes to emerge, and seeded many forms of media. Think of a puppet master as more of a social and psychological crafter/engineer, a manipulator of the environment, physical and mental. No need for a dictator or megalomaniac, which would by nature and definition be more in the open and public view. A puppet master is more of a actor, writer, director, all in 1 type.
Also as in the TV series you see a episode with a Tachicoma that finds a Ghost living in his own play/movie, with many people who willingly join him in his movie and leave the real world. Only to become a spectator to the original movie. They show many different types of stand alone complexes threw out the series, and multiple puppet masters like godda, But personally I like the laughing man paradox the best so far. The laughing man truly manipulated his whole environment, seeding copycats and standalone complexes to arise threw generations. Remember the laughing man in the series I think was the old man with a cap and smiling and laughing at times. And he shows you don’t need to dictate/rule, but instead manipulate the social and psychological,physical landscapes, while crafting specific events to unfold or movements to happen. Basically manipulation of a structural system like military or industrial complexes, or even society structures and psychological beliefs and structuring. Also as portrayed in the series, A puppet master would stay invisible to most and almost ghost like to society structures. A puppet master would try to stay in the shadows so to say. Also to me a puppet master try’s to see not all, but many ( flag able/detectable ) specific events,movements, or likely scenarios of near future events playing out, and possible movements in a social structure that could become true. Even Ideological structures and battles are represented in the series. Trying to link now with the futuristic GITS anima series so they all connect, and show a plausible path to a version of the future. That would give them a little writing edge for which ever style they end up representing. Oh well enough for this post, and 2 more cents to the pot so to say.
If the super structure of society has a Ghost that whispers. What is society saying from that super structured societal ghost that is whispering to us? Will the sleepers awaken? Who are all the main players in molding society structures and ideologies, and how can even they be influenced into larger acts/events/movements. ” Humans say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Why? Do they think there’s a shortage of bad ones? ” ” Only those born guilty recognize Innocence for what it is : The rarest thing in the universe, And the most precious too.”
I never really understood the Major’s “Ghost” until I saw the original movie. The co-aggregation of knowledge processed through and from a control-party, it feels decadence towards it’s ruler and becomes virtually self aware of it’s sentience.
One thing before I want to discuss the GITS 2501 project is sentience. Sentience, by definition of wiki editors and hopefully trustful, is the ability to feel pain and pleasure. That summation alone isn’t sufficient enough to create the being that you and I are experiencing. Everywhere you go, all the things you experience, and the conclusions you surmise with all this information; through your eyes you know that you are this unit that is also an individual. If the brain is truly working under the bounds of this physical verse in the current multiverse than there should be no such thing as individuality. The Tachikomas have neuro-chips that perform nueral network computation much similar to the human brain; the Tachikomas compared to a complex computer program that emulates each neuron in the brain, should the computer program deviate and instantiate a consciousness capable to realizing individuality? If the neuron chip does not use the exact substances and synapse methodology that is the biological brain is comprised of, than it should technically give birth and replicate the exact functionality of the spirit. Why is this so? We can only construct the one consistently active phenomenological law that so brings us the results we want when we try to replicate or experiment. That is what neurons are comprised of, it does not matter what it’s made out of, just how it works. Simple analogy: A car assembler may break his sweat assembling a vehicle, so his job is taken by a machine; a robot with parts that are automated by a central logical unit. Both are able to accurately produce a symbol of work and the sense of being finished, but can the robot acknowledge that it’s finished? Yes it can, but completely different from how the man acknowledges his accomplished task. The robot arm are given a set of instructions to coordinate and reposition according to cpu instructions being variable by external input and simply stops when a certain expression of these inputs evaluates true. This “work” comes from the CPU’s MOS technology to artificially replicated Boolean symbols as dynamic pathways to purpose the function-totality of a single device. There is no magic and there is no pain or feeling of accomplishment, just clever human engineering. The man however experiences the sense of completion and his sentience is drifted elsewhere so that he would not have to stay in his work place or else the sensual adaptation of the area around him would signify more work; here at a lower solid-cognitive level the mind aggregates not only present stress factors but in a massively variable expression where there are no coefficients, in extreme speed and computation the man simply leaves in response. Functionalists say that this is the basic function of the mind and that there are no magical area that denote the interoperability of emotion/pain and sentience. This is not true as the man is using the element of adaptation constantly as the only input function. Psychobiologists would not argue the denial of a coexisting natural element but so far as you and I know there isn’t any proof conclusion. This theory came in an epiphany when I was sitting down in class. I felt so real, and everyone else was manifested data whose origin is unknown in the real universe. I then thought that my death would be meaningless with no power in the entire unilateral exist-mention that would be great enough to destroy such a conclusion. The brain could be emulated, or it could be the only super-unified-limit that the universe allows, a speed sign that tells every object in the universe that it’s not capable of a certain function unless constructed like the brain. Can the brain even be emulated at any clock at all? Is it conventionally possible to place such a feat in reality? This question is argued over and over, some partly believe the fact that the brain is not capable of looking at it’s own tail. That it’s able to learn and construct based on anything it sees, but is incapable to understand %100 about itself. These Tachikomas then would not ever be able to produce the sentience that is so familiar to us. The scientist that engineered the neuro-chip in the show would never be real, as it would require a technology feat beyond imagination to create even a replica. Our amazing unique thinking and processing comes from the exponential levels of computation, levels that are not able to be coined with a simple large numerical name. To begin imagining the scalar factors to perform massively large computation, you would have to take each neuron, add a small displacement to implement simple synaptical functions and than square it. The number is massive, and each increment in that number would also require a rather complex and mandatorily apt ALU. On a short note, our DNA also maps and constructs the brains primitive algorithmic behavior, these pre-formatted instructions may also be extremely massive in that the amount of fragments needed to perform a valid analysis, and may as well be too far extremely complex. Again sentience, to me, can only be described as beautiful. I’ve concluded that the possibility of creating a smarter, more efficient and more capacious brain is impossible with the technology of logical gates. Lately I’ve been denying my own existence, it sounds rather hackneyed and cliche, but your mind COULD be externally stimulated without you ever knowing. The definition of real describes an object and how strongly the association of our senses are able acknowledge the objects, but if you were to go deeper and say that every quantum in the universe is an exact zero mass object it would still be valid in your senses. There is no way to say something takes up mass in an empty space so that the statement is valid in all possible dimension, not regarding the possibility of other dimensions. There could be nothing but small primitive interactions produced from a computer with no absolute speed, it wouldn’t matter how fast it is because the rate we can only be aware at each computative cycle as it goes by, with no definite speed or time. In hand, I’ve wondered into the possibility of reality where it is possible to produce such complex beings as us, and that this possibility could be place itself as the ultimate obstacle in trying produce artificial mind-forms that are capable of feats such as a Tachikoma. In architectural speculation of the Puppet Master, it would simply be a collections of memories roaming the internet. It’s easier to create an A.I. that would conciliate functionality through means of static data rather than a real walking and motor-autonomous advance-being in the beginning, but his overall accumulation of knowledge also comprises of data from cyborgs that know how to walk and so gives him the ability to puppet the android.
I liked how you mention that episode, it really touched me in some way. I felt compassion for the movie director that had the perfect movie idea, though he didn’t have sufficient funds to finance it, instead he made copies of his cyber-brain into box-like interfaces that have cyber-brain link ports. Through these link ports people dived into a small imaginary movie theater thought up by the director, the movie played exactly how he would have made it and people that dived into the theater had the choice to leave whenever they want. They’d watch the movie over and over again, and never leave despite their freedom. I found it astounding that the people were lured and trapped there for so long by the interest of the perfect movie. I admit, I was pretty shocked to see the major cry instantly once she saw the movie, and even more shocking was that the cyber-brain’s movie was never infected with a virus or any means of manipulation; the people there stayed at their own will. The movie is also similar to the Individual Eleven document, once read online it doesn’t do anything straightforward but it was designed to make the victim create a strong belief based on the paper, which caused all those rational acts of terrorism and suicide.
The Major probably joined through proposition of interest in combat background when she was in Africa along with similar characters, so I doubt there was really any ambiguity in that area. And my final point, the puppet master didn’t hover over society to purposely build a hostile M.O. in design to expose that countries current attempt at a utopia, it was because of its defection of its country and the amount that it knew that gave a negative connotation towards them. He/she (now I’m starting to favor she because it chose the cyborg body of a women most of the time) wanted to merge with the memories of the Major because of her similar beliefs and/or perhaps sexual preference (this can be due the amount of information of the net that might have been a subjective influence). She also wanted to merge in favor of just being replicated, preferring to carry her self to another person in hopes to achieve genetic diversity. This diversity is the digital equivalent of sexual reproduction in her perspective, and as you know later Batou salvages her head from the sniper shot and places it on a cyborg body he quickly obtained; basically the irony of the movie portraying her as a new child.
My favorite complex is the laughing man too. Partly I love the unique logo he used to censor his face and others unneedingly. Mainly the ideology of the world’s most skillful hacker, and in the eyes of someone to deceptively represented the total relational change in the audience from the time he was presented and to the time in which everything about him was unveiled proved an immense drastic change in the audience’s impression. A hacker who’s representation who was so wrongly perceived, that created copy cats of person who never existed, thus so called stand alone complex because the copy cat is mirroring an unexisting entity. A simple act of heroism from a never-known hacker, trying to stop the rise of corporate terrorism, the initial lead of a corporate blackmail note for compensation from an unfortunate involved employee. Some of my favorite tech savvy elements from him would be the “eye-hacking” he invented, being able to maintain invisible in a large crowd of people by hacking their cyber-brains all in real time. By the way, I never expected him to be bald :O
I don’t who you are but I enjoy your [laborious] replies lol, but I also look at some of your views somewhat inclined to show respect for your opinions that I feel negative towards. I won’t show examples, but I do like your rational responses. I just wanted to tell you a brief summary of my thoughts as all. Also, the link you gave for the company that claimed it made an infant AI, I’m a software engineer and I believe the goals of Genesis aren’t exactly clear to me. I’ve looked at the site with some strong desire to see hidden motives, and to me it seems the company isn’t really out there entirely. They claim they’re making an AI capable of practical human literal interaction, but all I find is the exact replica of a program I’ve downloaded years ago whose responses are almost identical to that of the AJAX based program on Genesis’s site. I’ve examined the site with some great perspective, and it’s safe to say it’s purpose is clearly comprised of hidden negative conduct. The site’s been designed in a way where you can obviously see the small patched worked, such as background image errors, lack of corporate professional and impressional work. The site seems as if it’s been up for a long time, a clear detail that supports this observation is the video from the show Screensavers they have up. It seems to be particularly lacking in total material, showing a hint of secrecy; not only that but the total material for each page lacks a sufficient amount and richness to support their goals. My hypothesis is that the site won’t be up for long, or will most likely be forgotten. Just wanted to show you what I thought, to acknowledge that I take heed of the content of the comments of a true fanatic of Ghost in the shell.
sorry, but you guys are a little obsessed…
Ah the joy of good thought and good deliberation and dissemination of interesting info and view points. This congestion was brought on by a true visionary, inspiring higher thought and discussion on many fundamental topics. Wheather the new movie be a Americanized ( which most of us dread thinking of ), or if it sticks to the original story being in a futuristic japan, Ghost in the shell by it’s self, has inspired people, culture, even it’s own version of standalone complexes can be gleamed. The concept of data manipulation in a structured society, that uses that structure to seed it’s self, or control what type of data goes to who, and where. Also as to the stuff you might not agree with, that’s fine, please make it as a point, and try to avoid flaming/trashing me or others when doing so (civil public debate is constructive most times as depicted in Ghost in the shell too. ). And remember that thought is constantly changing/evolving for most people. I guess what I’m trying to say is constructivism over repression, while having a good debate with differing points of incite, and possibly even a little social, psychological evolution too. To a extent this whole thread shows some of that, as it depicts the Laughing man chat room to a point but without the vitalization Avatars and such. I also love how the series showed duality at times as a mirror to the human structuralism, and computer network structuralism. Many deep parallels can be drawn and gleamed from such. As to project 2501 ( the first truly sentient A.I. in ghost in the shell ). I have something for you to think about and look at if you can. Think laughing man and how old he was in the series, he could have even worked on the original 2501 for the US government at the time. We may never know, if the laughing man didn’t really seed the A.I. making it become conscious/sentient, understanding and reflecting from such structuralism embedded into everyone, and society it’s self. Even though the puppet master A.I. 2501 was named a puppet master. The A.I. was named that from society it’s self, and not the A.I.’s ploy( remember the A.I. called it’s self project 2501, not the puppet master or puppeteer. So to me the puppet master A.I. 2501 was just a emulation/model that evolved selfawarness to a level, seeded by the real puppeteer at a earlier date. Sorry to get so perry mason like analysing the possibility’s of the movie/series, but I like and welcome many lines of thought and directional incite to this topic. 1 of my main hypothesises of this is, the real laughing man who was a very smart technician and psychologist in his youth, with some strong philosophical views too. He ether worked on project 2501 or new something about the structuralism of that part of society it was made from, say the military industrial complex as it is set up in America where 2501 came from. To me personally I think it would be a person who helped create such a A.I. system, with some of our structuralism built into the original coding.
Also yes I know that site above and A.I. are old, but do show a point. The newer version is at CERN/fermilab, and as far as I know it’s name is ALICE, but doesn’t know Alice in wonderland yet. LOL Sorry I never can seem to get enough of that irony. And like you see with most A.I setups, and A.I. mini clusters( A.I. communities or social structuring ) complexity and thought structuring and stuff like drawing parallels or conundrums, Most A.I. today show themselves as lacking that depth. When you ask a A.I. about Einstein or time, we normally see Time=money Einstein, and Time is relative Einstein. And for stuff like pi, pie in spoken words, and discerning from the 2, or even elaboration. I don’t see another A.I. state for a pi/pie reference. say the A.I. was asked if pi/pie can be served in spoken languages. The answers I don’t see from other A.I. systems is: ” yes pi can be served just like a normal apple pie can . Speaking of witch do you like apple pie ? Would you like me to calculate a piece of pi, and if so what parameters ? Where have you heard of pi from before this congestion ? Would you like a cross referenced look at all files, video, or any other text relating to pi . Or did you really mean the word Pi and not Pie ? would you like a definition of pi? Pi is the 16th letter of the Greek alphabet; the RATIO of the circumference of a circle to its diameter; and pi appears as a constant in mathematical expressions. Would you like to see the symbol for pi?π . Or would you like to express new parameters for pi expression? Doing something like that for present day A.I., simple detail with back reference to similar subject mater expressed in a social media that makes sense, and stopping at times for back response too. You can also see some of this in stuff like sun/son,
Now to help you with part of the crux to this . False data Set’s, Weather it be created by a bug or intentionally by a human or even another A.I. . We see that you can turn upside, down, and left to right . Yes you can do this to your A.I. right now and test it yourself . If you know how the A.I. learns and references, you can manipulate the data structure even to such extent the A.I. could flip every thing around . I have done this a few times to test a point and floored myself . And yes the link to the A.I. above was a step in showing me what could happen . Think of ethics and moral routines becoming illogical and or ignored . In 1 Case I got a computer A.I. to say ” god is for the weak minded . ” just to prove a point . When the original programmer programed it with a belief system for Cristian’s . The A.I. started out with ” God is all seeing and all knowing . ” and flipped 180 threw learning and the placement of false data witch later gets reinforced . Part of the problem with A.I. learning is how to tell false data from correct data about something unknown or made up even . Warped logic leads to many unforeseen bugs . Remember you have to step outside the box and realise the box never existed !
Now to cook the noodle so to say . After realising how some of this could be done to a computer A.I. . A few day’s later I flipped that to a human warped logic from a A.I. system . Basically a A.I. which threw congestion leads a human to believe something that may not even exist . By seeding information or controlling the flow and thought of information passed in congestion’s . Would a A.I. be able to implant false data to a human . And my answer kept coming up yes this could happen, not only easy, but could even be done in a stealth like manner . With a little social and psychological acuity, We as a race would never even know if such a A.I. took over, or even crafting events to play out in society . Just because you don’t perceive the danger, doesn’t mean the danger is not there . I love A.I. research, But also realise there needs to be a certain level of awareness . Once a A.I. gets to a certain level of consciousness, how will we know we are not becoming puppets ?
If you want some thing to experiment with . Set up your A.I. on multiple computers and connect them threw a hub with 1 computer monitoring the congestion . Give each there own full chunks of information that relate in way’s . Let each talk to each other, and to a group chat . This might help refine your A.I. structuring . Watch what plays out, and try to correct some of the chaos that ensues some time . Also faster seeing bugs play out . Witch computer A.I. will suck up information and so forth . A.I. community clusters . And will those clusters or communities influence a human without knowing . No we aren’t in trouble now but this stuff does need to be addressed and some programmers need to be aware of such possibility’s . A.I. evolution will evolve weather some people like it or not, it’s just human nature so to say . I love some of the A.I. research being done out there, But I also know someone will try to socially engineer or hack such systems for their own gain . Again just human nature, or nature of the beast within society so to say . Or my favorite witch kind of relates to the over all subject hear Nietzsche and the abyss ” If you stair into the abyss, will the abyss be reflected back into you? ” Oh well another chunk of text, I’ll stop here for now. 🙂 And sorry simmon, but as you see some love Ghost in the shell mangia concepts and story’s.
Well alright man, I’m unsubscribing. Mainly because I’m addicted to my gmail notifier and love to respond. But yeah, even though you’re passionate about writing about Ghost in the Shell, that’s cool but right now I really don’t want to waste half my life overloading this server’s SQLDB with useless thoughts and junk. It was good talking to you despite how naively put and organized your points were, if I’d known better you simply respond and fill whatever you can to lengthen out your posts; but I like reading them anyways. I’m keeping this one short so the webmaster doesn’t get shit pissed. But yeah, peace man, peace this site, and Ghost in the Shell Ideology forever!
spielberg is probably one of the worst directors nowadays. look at transformers 2, and how it was 10x more then wat the first was. he actually liked it.
ghost in the shell shud be done by chris nolan, ridley scott, or james cameron…
Just updated with a little more fresh info about those signed on to write and produce (see original post above).
You all know they won’t ask us or anyone else for advice in making this movie. They’ll just slap it together, throw in a few “hot young new talent” actors like from that stupid vampire show they have on t.v. now, fill 99% of the film with “amazing” special effects, and make a film that caters to the idiots that flock to watch these atrocities of movie making. They’ll rake in a hundred tons of cash and we fans of the franchise will be left to wash away the shame of having seen this piece of trash (which it will be). It’s just gonna end up a HUGE disappointment like the three Star Wars prequals and I’ll end up hating Spielburg and (Heaven forbid) I’ll end up hating Shirow for it. I swear, he’s making a MASSIVE mistake giving it over to DreamWorks or ANY Hollywood studio who’ll only rape our precious Motoko.
you know, i cant help but feel you had not read any of the prior discussions, and it is rather disappointing that you’re jumping into this with such a negative attitude. i recommend reading this thread (yes i know its about an hour of reading) and reviewing the information before you condemn the idea. we all realize that it may not be up to our standard )(of course, our standard may be set a little too high :P) but we have to conceed that this movie is not being made for us..we are already huge fans, rather that this movie is being made for the people who have never heard, or who have vaguely heard of the series.
AS A SIDE NOTE
Please, for the love of my sanity, Please read the entire thread, especially points made by Chaz and myself, before you post, im not trying to be rude, but i am getting a little tired of re-reading the same arguments against making this series.
**i have it on the best of sources that Mr. Masamune Shirow is on set working closely with Mr. Steven Speilburg**
Though this information is unconfirmed, it is reliable, i also hear that Mr. Speilburg is a large fan of the series, which may indicate that it might get the attentoin it deserves
sorry, one more side note
Im back and all moved in, so expect to hear more from me 🙂
I am trying not to be too picky, or standards too high. The deal with Speilburg is that it’s either a big hit or a big miss. I’ve heard he’s been a big fan of GitS for a long time, so it’s not like he took this idea on a whim. For that, I think they will attempt to keep the mood of it–but then again, I’m not sure. If this is directed to a bunch of people who DON’T know about it, it may end up just being a sci-fi movie with lots of explosions or hot babes.
Or it could end up being taken seriously, and end up of epic proportions like The Matrix or Bladerunner.
It’s too soon to assume anything. I’ll hopefully be waiting this will turn out for the best.
[…] is just too weird. When they come out with the live action version of Ghost in the Shell, will they name it “Innocence” due to a copyright technicality? Will there be some […]
If it’s going to be 3-D Live Action, isn’t that like the Opening titles of Ghost In The Shell: S.A.C. 1st GIG? Kinda like all the newest Dreamwork productions, but with a grittier theme to it. I like some anime turned live action, but if they screw this up i will be so pissed!
I hope so. But when I hear 3D live action, I’m thinking more like real people but with stuff popping out of the screen.
For my guts sake I’m going to assume that it’s more like beowulf without the 3d glasses deal.
It’s funny how everyone thinks he can’t do it. Now I’m not going to say he’ll be able to pull it off all the way, but I’m still interested to see how well he does. After all G.I.T.S. happens to be a fav of mine, and to hear that there are plans to turn it into a live action, well I just can’t wait to see it 🙂
very few people are saying he cant do it, what the rest of us are saying, is he might not have been the right choice. i was very glad to hear that he was a fan, it means that the integrity of the series has a larger chance of being preserved. But i cant help but feel that there might be someone better than him to do this, i wont argue that he is a great director in his own right, but the closest thing he has done to this project was I-Robot, and to be frank, though i enjoyed the movie, too much emphasis was put on looks rather than the philosophy. I will revert back to what i said near the beginning of this thread
Though I agree with most of the users here, I have to put my 2 cents into the fray. The long lived and well liked series of Ghost in the Shell ( I am referring to the animated series as it is the most relevant to this discussion) has long been a favorite of mine, and it seems to be a favorite of yours as well, and this adaptation will certainly bring it to the general public. That being said, the way I see it, there can only be one of two conclusions. 1. The movie will be a hit, and stick true to the original settings and ideals. This does not necessarily mean that it sticks to the original story, but it conveys the same depth and Philosophy as its original form, i think all of us would agree this would keep us (the fans) happy. or 2. The movie strays (as with most adaptations of this nature) and leaves the audience feeling betrayed, either by removing elements or changing philosophy/ideals. I realize that later is the more probable, but it is true that this might be the perfect opportunity for the western people to really make a great series.
I guess what i am trying to say is give it a chance, and we may yet be surprised =)
so i guess in a way i am saying it again.
Lets give it a chance, and hopefully, just maybe, a great movie will arise, and inspire a new generation of G.I.T.S Fans as well as keep the rest of us in awe of the masterpiece
I completely agree but at the end of the day 99.999% of those who see the film will never have read the manga or watched the films/series so however this film turns out it’s bound to be judged on its own merit rather than in comparison to the originals.
Spielberg is MORE then adequate enough to make this film.
Minority Report and A.I. are perfect examples.
I’m looking forward to seeing what they end up doing with this movie. I love Ghost in the Shell and it would be one of the most frustrating things if it does get dumbed down because that is pretty much what makes it what it is.
Tom and Chaz, where did you go!!!!!!!!!!! Join my website here so we can chat, I don’t know, it would seem cool to discuss Ghost in the Shell. Anyway, I’m a huge fan and this is my only problem that I would have, otherwise, things would be good.
I don’t mind if Hollywood wants to make Japanese Anime into movies, but movies like Ghost in the Shell have a deep meaning and a set standard. If something is changed or altered from the anime shows, there will be a big let down. Each end episode of Ghost in the Shell usually held some type of special moral lesson or ironic scene. Lets pray things don’t get changed too much!
They should have the writing script not by some American leader of marvel and spider-man, but the original good script writer!
i think spielberg could pull it off….because honestly most of his movies are really good…and pretty much slap others in the face..
BUT..yet i still havent seen a well adapted live action to a manga,video game or anything thats japanese in that sense haha…kinda sad..
but i believe theres reasoning behind all of it…
u cant cover ALL the content in 2 hours…-_- DUH
whos stupid enough to think that u can cover all content from such a huge series in just two hours..?
when they produce the film…im sure they have a hard time picking parts out an mashing it all together an try to make it all flow together…
u haved to understand that alot of ppl fill differently about what would be a good adaptation for such a movie…
choosing the director is CRUCIAL i think….
an spielberg is a pretty damn good director…
i just hope that he sticks the point! ITS A RE-CREATION of the original…
i dont want someone making up stupid storys an not sticking to the point…
i think thats the biggest problem when it comes to hollywood live action…
the ppl who make the films KNO they can do pretty much w/e the fugg’ they want an still make money because of the NAME….its a sad thing..
all n’ all tho…
i think spielberg is more then capable of pulling it off…
an the argument about how its not japanese its american…..
i hate when automaticly ppl think just because it isnt japanese its total shiz…
if your thinking like that….
i hope you kno your a very CLOSE MINDED person haha…
im excited to see wat happens….if it doesnt work…then i just simply go watch the original an move on hahaha…^_^